So... we're calling the January issue of Comixpedia, "The Future Issue" which at least in part is about the future of webcomics. So I'd like to restart this thread from the old forums - what exactly is the "innovation" in webcomics these days?
what separates a gimmick from a genuine innovation? When can you say that someone is doing something just to get a bigger audience, and when can you say that an artist or performer or anyone is just pushing the boundaries of their medium?
A gimmick is something you use to stand out from the crowd. Or a wrestling persona. Um. Anyway. I guess that means that the innovativeness of a gimmick isn't really as important as how well it works to help you stand out. In the case of the fabricari movie, it works as a promotional gimmick (at least for me... I went and looked and then checked out the comic). As far as innovation goes, I'd say it works there too.
For the record, I consider my comic's format a gimmick, and often refer to it as that. But it's been called innovation once or twice, so I don't know.
[quote:cf4d2623a7="reva"]Then again, saying this may just be me hoping the format of my own project, which has been taking me quite a while, isn't going to turn out gimmicky :S
Interesting new webcomic Reva! You're posting stuff this coming Monday?
[quote:fa283e3355="Fenris"]
Myself, I know my strengths to a degree and how to sell it. Sure, a six foot tall red headed woman that is possessed by a visually arresting demon is gimmicky to a point. It sells, and people will read my comic for that alone. But I treat it with respect, or so I like to think. She is a character with depth and personality, and that blends the gimmick with innovation. She's not just there to attract readers... she's there because I, and others, find her interesting in appearance and character.
I think you're misunderstanding what innovative is. While plenty of things could be treated as a gimmick, attempting to create a character with depth and personality is not innovative in the slightest. People have attempted to do that with millions of characters of all types. It's just a very common approach to writing that most everyone should be familiar with.
[quote:98d209d785="rezo"][quote:98d209d785="Fenris"]
Myself, I know my strengths to a degree and how to sell it. Sure, a six foot tall red headed woman that is possessed by a visually arresting demon is gimmicky to a point. It sells, and people will read my comic for that alone. But I treat it with respect, or so I like to think. She is a character with depth and personality, and that blends the gimmick with innovation. She's not just there to attract readers... she's there because I, and others, find her interesting in appearance and character.
I think you're misunderstanding what innovative is. While plenty of things could be treated as a gimmick, attempting to create a character with depth and personality is not innovative in the slightest. People have attempted to do that with millions of characters of all types. It's just a very common approach to writing that most everyone should be familiar with.
I'm wholly aware of what innovation is. I was more trying to justify my character as not being entirely gimmicky. As I later intimated, her being a part (an integral part) of the setting and the story is what sets it apart in my books.
I have to disagree with your point about that being a fairly common approach to writing, as well. I agree it should be... sadly, that is often not the case.
I was more trying to justify my character as not being entirely gimmicky.
But you called it innovative. If you know what the word means you must agree that it was misused?
Anyway it totally is a pretty common approach to writing- the attempt to make deep characters. Super shallow one-dimensional characters are common too. And of course not every attempt at either is successful.
But anyways, there are a lot of people writing. On TV, in movies, novels , comic strips/books, theatre etc etc every year there are plenty of people pushing the simple concept of "not having a shallow character." By calling it simple I don't mean its bad or anything of course. If I was writing a story I'd try to give the characters solid personalities. But it's not something hard to find in storytelling in the slightest. You could ignore all contemporary works and still have enough out there to satisfy you for a lifetime.
Gimmick: Draw your comic naked.
Innovation: Draw your comic naked and make money doing it.
I turned my gimmick into a podcast. And I was naked when I did it, too! Alas, no money was involved: http://www.fabricari.com/video/
[quote:644d512022="Fabricari"]Gimmick: Draw your comic naked.
Innovation: Draw your comic naked and make money doing it.
I didn't really think of it as innovative when I did it. I did think of it as a good way to continue buying food and clothes though.
[quote:5c7154ee5d="timdemeter"]I hear Clickwheel is fucking AWESOME!
Eat shamless plug, evil-doer!
Seriously though, what say you, gimmick or innovation?
Clickwheel!
Seems to me to be more INNOVATION than GIMMICK...
It is a yet another great way for creators (if their content is compatible) to expand their audience.
I'm curious to see some gimmicks though!
Oh - I just now saw Fabricari's Movies for the first time!
Very cool!!!
:)
Joking about whoring aside, I'm in on this because I really do believe it is innovation. As some of you may recall I got a video iPod a little while ago and immediately loaded my comic on it, and I was just blown away by the clarity of the screen and the interface provides from some really interesting opportunities for storytelling in how you can control pacing.
I know in regards to this, Scott Mccloud said he wants a larger canvas, not a smaller one, and that's fact, but this way of reading allows the creator to produce the comic in a very cinematic fashion as far as emphasis and timing goes. If you want to pound a moment, you can repeat a panel screen after screen and get closer each time, or use a blank screen to underscore time passage and it's just more effective to me than using some these tricks on paper or a computer screen.
And on top of that, it's just a really convenient way to read comics. I'm sure it won't be long until iPods are web enabled, and when you can have comics delivered right to your iPod the second they go live, well, now that's going to be something.
Tim I think you are totally on the right track!
Ultimately the screens will be bigger so it is just a matter of time until that hurdle is hopped... and yeah... a web enabled iPod might not be too far down the line...
It's definitely good to get a head start having your comic in this format!
I just downloaded Reckless Life from Clickwheel.net - your art is SO crisp!
It looks excellent on the iPod!
:)
The only way to distinguish innovations from gimmicks is the artist's level of curiosity.
In my opinion, an innovation is something that future creators can build upon in their own works. A gimmick is something that is transient -- it only works at one point in time, or in one situation, or does not affect the structure of the artform.
I can think of a musical example. Say a punk band dressed up like chickens to play their gig -- that's a gimmick. If they made their music by molesting live chickens, that's an innovation. Future chicken-punk bands could improve their chicken-molesting technique and give the world an entirely new brand of chicken-molesting music.
It's a little more difficult to molest chickens in webcomics, but I know a lot of people are trying.
So we should all strive to be the best chicken molesters we can!
History will remember.
[quote:24440ab817="RemusShepherd"]It's a little more difficult to molest chickens in webcomics, but I know a lot of people are trying.
And if there are any succeeding I don't want to know about it! :)
I'm against Clickwheel simply because my iPod mini cant use it.
Oh well, in another year when I have to buy a new one because the battery is dead for good, I'll upgrade to an iPod Video.
In my webcomic the characters constantly shift from one historical period to another. Gimmick or innovation? I don't know of any webcomic to do this before me. But Xena: Warrior Princess did it, sometimes.
[quote:121b234ac7="TWG"]Oh well, in another year when I have to buy a new one because the battery is dead for good, I'll upgrade to an iPod Video.
...and then you will be All FOR it!
;)
[quote:3ae8171f6f="J-Sun"][quote:3ae8171f6f="TWG"]Oh well, in another year when I have to buy a new one because the battery is dead for good, I'll upgrade to an iPod Video.
...and then you will be All FOR it!
;)
I never knew love until I got mine. But I don't think you're wrong in saying boo because you can't use it, it's definitely early adopter stuff.
[quote:e4fdfa5504="Fabricari"]Gimmick: Draw your comic naked.
Innovation: Draw your comic naked and make money doing it.
making money regardless of what your wearing is the innovation!
As far as I can tell, innovation is gimmickry that works more than once, or that works so well that others not only adopt it, but use it to do new things that were never intended by the original creator.
"Horseless carriages" probably seemed gimmicky and faddish at the turn of the century. Proust writes a great bit in "In Search of Lost Time" about "the angels of the telephone exchange," and their effect on the setting and characters in the story. This might have seemed kind of gimmicky at the time in the same way that the cheesy over the top bells & mirrorshades graphic design of Wired Magazine seems more style than substance today. Now that telephony is essential to modern life though, Proust's take seems like a fascinating innovation in novel-writing and he gets the credit for being there first.
Seems like whenever you want to indicate that something is small, petty or nasty you use the Anglosaxon word. Whenever you want it to be dignified or admirable, you reach for the latinate term. You might spit, but the royal we expectorates...
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Gimmick in my mind is just another word for savvy marketing move... well, maybe not always savvy, but generally a marketing move. And gimmicks can often be innovations, as long as you're one of the first people to use them.
Most successful comics will give readers "what they want" to a degree. CAD seems to exist on this concept alone, since there's nothing innovative happening there. But for an example of being innovative and gimmicky, look no further than Penny-Arcade. They make these catchphrases up, or give a new spin to something, and we eat it up. They'll take a fairly common phase or word (like "wang") and make it their own.
Myself, I know my strengths to a degree and how to sell it. Sure, a six foot tall red headed woman that is possessed by a visually arresting demon is gimmicky to a point. It sells, and people will read my comic for that alone. But I treat it with respect, or so I like to think. She is a character with depth and personality, and that blends the gimmick with innovation. She's not just there to attract readers... she's there because I, and others, find her interesting in appearance and character.
What exactly is the innovation in webcomics these days?
Different people will have different answers for that, and who can say they're wrong? Myself, I find innovation in blending my creative influences into something fresh, unique and interesting. Sure, there are many webcomics that delve into fantasy much like I have... but I don't think anyone does it quite like I do. That's my innovation I think. I'm interested in seeing how other people define it.
I see gimmink as something where you go "holy crap it's AWESOME" and forward to 20 of your friends. One day, you will discover it again and you'll either go "holy crap it's AWESOME" or ask yourself why you thought it was awesome in the first place.
Innovation is something where you go "holy crap it's AWESOME", forward it to 20 of your friends, and then keep thinking about it for two weeks. Eventually, someone will write a long blog post on it, and people will bicker and debate about it and the defenders of the innovation will have a better argument than "but it's fucking AWESOME!". And Scott McCloud will write about it. And people will dissagree or agree. And stuff. That's innovation.
I hear Clickwheel is fucking AWESOME!
Eat shamless plug, evil-doer!
Seriously though, what say you, gimmick or innovation?
I've thrown in with them, so you know what I think.
Or maybe I should say, "iThink."
Oh, I'm SO funny.
This last year has taught me that a gimmick will get in the way of you getting your comic finished on time. Innovation may help you get it done quicker.
[quote:24e7720ae4="Fabricari"]This last year has taught me that a gimmick will get in the way of you getting your comic finished on time. Innovation may help you get it done quicker.
Nah, I think that's just a matter of whether your innovation is taking place in terms of the comic-making process or in the actual asthetics of it. If you're changing the process, yes, the innovation could help you get it done faster. But if the change is in navigation, layout, color, style, etc. it may still take longer without turning out gimmicky.
Then again, saying this may just be me hoping the format of my own project, which has been taking me quite a while, isn't going to turn out gimmicky :S